by Ken Ham
Over the years, many people have challenged me with a question like:
???I???ve been trying to witness to my friends. They say they don???t believe the Bible and aren???t interested in the stuff in it. They want real proof that there???s a God who created, and then they???ll listen to my claims about Christianity. What proof can I give them without mentioning the Bible so they???ll start to listen to me????
Briefly, my response is as follows.
Creationists and evolutionists, Christians and non-Christians all have the same evidence???the same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same stars???the facts are all the same.
The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events.
We all exist in the present???and the facts all exist in the present. When one is trying to understand how the evidence came about (Where did the animals come from? How did the fossil layers form? etc.), what we are actually trying to do is to connect the past to the present.
However, if we weren???t there in the past to observe events, how can we know what happened so we can explain the present? It would be great to have a time machine so we could know for sure about past events.
Christians of course claim they do, in a sense, have a ???time machine???. They have a book called the Bible which claims to be the Word of God who has always been there, and has revealed to us the major events of the past about which we need to know.
On the basis of these events (Creation, Fall, Flood, Babel, etc.), we have a set of presuppositions to build a way of thinking which enables us to interpret the evidence of the present.
Evolutionists have certain beliefs about the past/present that they presuppose, e.g. no God (or at least none who performed acts of special creation), so they build a different way of thinking to interpret the evidence of the present.
Thus, when Christians and non-Christians argue about the evidence, in reality they are arguing about their interpretations based on their presuppositions.
That???s why the argument often turns into something like:
???Can???t you see what I???m talking about???? ???No, I can???t. Don???t you see how wrong you are???? ???No, I???m not wrong. It???s obvious that I???m right.??? ???No, it???s not obvious.??? And so on.
???Can???t you see what I???m talking about????
???No, I can???t. Don???t you see how wrong you are????
???No, I???m not wrong. It???s obvious that I???m right.???
???No, it???s not obvious.??? And so on.
These two people are arguing about the same evidence, but they are looking at the evidence through different glasses.
It???s not until these two people recognize the argument is really about the presuppositions they have to start with, that they will begin to deal with the foundational reasons for their different beliefs. A person will not interpret the evidence differently until they put on a different set of glasses???which means to change one???s presuppositions.
I???ve found that a Christian who understands these things can actually put on the evolutionist???s glasses (without accepting the presuppositions as true) and understand how they look at evidence. However, for a number of reasons, including spiritual ones, a non-Christian usually can???t put on the Christian???s glasses???unless they recognize the presuppositional nature of the battle and are thus beginning to question their own presuppositions.
It is of course sometimes possible that just by presenting ???evidence???, you can convince a person that a particular scientific argument for creation makes sense ???on the facts???. But usually, if that person then hears a different interpretation of the same evidence that seems better than yours, that person will swing away from your argument, thinking they have found ???stronger facts???.
However, if you had helped the person to understand this issue of presuppositions, then they will be better able to recognize this for what it is???a different interpretation based on differing presuppositions???i.e. starting beliefs.
As a teacher, I found that whenever I taught the students what I thought were the ???facts??? for creation, then their other teacher would just re-interpret the facts. The students would then come back to me saying, ???Well sir, you need to try again.???
However, when I learned to teach my students how we interpret facts, and how interpretations are based on our presuppositions, then when the other teacher tried to reinterpret the facts, the students would challenge the teacher???s basic assumptions. Then it wasn???t the students who came back to me, but the other teacher! This teacher was upset with me because the students wouldn???t accept her interpretation of the evidence and challenged the very basis of her thinking.
What was happening was that I had learned to teach the students how to think rather than just what to think. What a difference that made to my class! I have been overjoyed to find, sometimes decades later, some of those students telling me how they became active, solid Christians as a result.
If one agrees to a discussion without using the Bible as some people insist, then they have set the terms of the debate. In essence these terms are:
???Facts??? are neutral. However, there are no such things as ???brute facts???; all facts are interpreted. Once the Bible is eliminated in the argument, then the Christians??? presuppositions are gone, leaving them unable to effectively give an alternate interpretation of the facts. Their opponents then have the upper hand as they still have their presuppositions
Truth can/should be determined independent of God. However, the Bible states: ???The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom??? (Psalm 111:10); ???The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge??? (Proverbs 1:7). ???But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned??? (1 Corinthians 2:14).
A Christian cannot divorce the spiritual nature of the battle from the battle itself. A non-Christian is not neutral. The Bible makes this very clear: ???The one who is not with Me is against Me, and the one who does not gather with Me scatters??? (Matthew 12:30); ???And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil??? (John 3:19).
Agreeing to such terms of debate also implicitly accepts their proposition that the Bible???s account of the universe???s history is irrelevant to understanding that history!
1 Peter 3:15 and other passages make it clear we are to use every argument we can to convince people of the truth, and 2 Cor. 10:4???5 says we are to refute error (like Paul did in his ministry to the Gentiles). Nonetheless, we must never forget Hebrews 4:12: ???For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.???
Also, Isaiah 55:11: ???So shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do.???
Even though our human arguments may be powerful, ultimately it is God???s Word that convicts and opens people to the truth. In all of our arguments, we must not divorce what we are saying from the Word that convicts.
When someone tells me they want ???proof??? or ???evidence???, not the Bible, my response is as follows:
???You might not believe the Bible but I do. And I believe it gives me the right basis to understand this universe and correctly interpret the facts around me. I???m going to give you some examples of how building my thinking on the Bible explains the world and is not contradicted by science. For instance, the Bible states that God made distinct kinds of animals and plants. Let me show you what happens when I build my thinking on this presupposition. I will illustrate how processes such as natural selection, genetic drift, etc. can be explained and interpreted. You will see how the science of genetics makes sense based upon the Bible.???
One can of course do this with numerous scientific examples, showing how the issue of sin and judgment, for example, is relevant to geology and fossil evidence. And how the Fall of man, with the subsequent Curse on creation, makes sense of the evidence of harmful mutations, violence, and death.
Once I???ve explained some of this in detail, I then continue:
???Now let me ask you to defend your position concerning these matters. Please show me how your way of thinking, based on your beliefs, makes sense of the same evidence. And I want you to point out where my science and logic are wrong.???
In arguing this way, a Christian is:
Using biblical presuppositions to build a way of thinking to interpret the evidence.
Showing that the Bible and science go hand in hand.1
Challenging the presuppositions of the other person (many are unaware they have these).
Forcing the debater to logically defend his position consistent with science and his own presuppositions (many will find that they cannot do this).
Honouring the Word of God that convicts the soul.
Remember, it???s no good convincing people to believe in creation, without also leading them to believe and trust in the Creator/Redeemer, Jesus Christ. God honours those who honour His Word. We need to use God-honouring ways of reaching people with the truth of what life is all about.
I like George Carlin's take on religion. It sounded something like this...
'Christianity somehow, gets grown adults to believe there is a big omniscient invisible man in the sky. Who can see you all the time, hear your thoughts, and if you don't follow ten little rules he gives you, he will banish you to a place of pain and fire and brimstone for all of eternity!....But he loves you...and he needs you're money...he's all powerful, but isn't that good with cash...'
Believe it or not, that's one of the least cynical things Carlin ever said on the subject...he also went on to call religion the 'greatest bullshit story every told' and ranted about how he prayed to Joe Pesci Somebody???
'I tried praying to God, but only about half of what I prayed for came through in the end...that when I started praying to Joe Pesci. Moreover, it's only because I think he's a really great actor, but because he strikes me as the kind of guy who can get things done! I prayed to God for months about my neighbors??? noisy dog, then I prayed to Joe, cleared it up in one day! It's amazing what one man can do with a simple base ball bat.'
He also said something about worshipping the sun because he could actually SEE it, but I don't have a very good memory of how that one goes...Those aren't exact quotes, it's just a vague memory from all the stand up acts and books I???ve seen by George. I apologize for anyone I may have offended, because it was not my intent to offend.
"God is an absentee landlord."
SweetMelody wrote: Believe it or not, that's one of the least cynical things Carlin ever said on the subject...he also went on to call religion the 'greatest bullshit story every told' and ranted about how he prayed to Joe Pesci Somebody???
why is that offensive, that pretty well summarizes what many of us think!
SweetMelody said: Not to attack you or anything but, wouldn't you agree this could be true, "That there is NO God!"
The Bible's reply:
BibleThumper wrote: SweetMelody said: Not to attack you or anything but, wouldn't you agree this could be true, "That there is NO God!" The Bible's reply: Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
I believe in GOD and I also believe in evolution. Heck, in the last 40 years of my life I've seen the world evolve a lot. I bet it really changed a lot in the last few million years. I believe man could have evolved from monkeys but have to wonder if the monkeys who are still monkeys are slow learners or too smart to become humans.
willie c wuddle wrote: if the monkeys who are still monkeys are slow learners or too smart to become humans.
if the monkeys who are still monkeys are slow learners or too smart to become humans.
exactly, they are too smart to become humans. Think about this for a sec, in an animal kingdom harems are the way to go, you can eat whatever you want, money grow on trees, and the only thing that suz is when they have to come in contact with humans.
I think your arguements are weak, full of holes and have no real subtance. All you appear to be doing is quoting the bible verbatim...BIBLE THUMPER how fitting.
Celeste wrote: BibleThumper wrote: SweetMelody said: Not to attack you or anything but, wouldn't you agree this could be true, "That there is NO God!" The Bible's reply: Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. I think your arguements are weak, full of hole and have no real subtance. All you appear to be doing is quoting the bible verbatim...BIBLE THUMPER how fitting.
I think your arguements are weak, full of hole and have no real subtance. All you appear to be doing is quoting the bible verbatim...BIBLE THUMPER how fitting.
But don't you see? If it was said in the Bible, it must be true.
Starry wrote:But whoever said the Bible is true? How do we know its not fiction? It's a book..people write books...some true and some not so true.
That's pretty much what I was implying. For future reference, most of what I say has at least a hint of sarcasm in it.
oneandonly wrote:he under estimates himself by a lil bit!we called him mr.sarcasm on moncton.com
Aww...you guys even gave me a nickname? That's swell.
Vlad Drac wrote: Starry wrote:But whoever said the Bible is true? How do we know its not fiction? It's a book..people write books...some true and some not so true. That's pretty much what I was implying. For future reference, most of what I say has at least a hint of sarcasm in it.
Starry wrote: Vlad Drac wrote: Starry wrote:But whoever said the Bible is true? How do we know its not fiction? It's a book..people write books...some true and some not so true. That's pretty much what I was implying. For future reference, most of what I say has at least a hint of sarcasm in it. Are you sure about that sarcasm thing....cuz you sure seem pretty nice to me??
Yeah, that whole me being nice thing is just an act. Watch your back, I know where you live.
Well, if she took my advice, she wouldn't take me seriously.
No it got this way because Bible Thumper realized he could't convert me to his ideology. Cause lets face it Pie in the sky bye and bye- that's what Christians wants us to believe. While reincarnation offers hope to many. If we don't get it right in this life, we have another chance the next time around. Yet, even those who believe in reincarnation admit that the vast majority of humans do not remember their previous lives. How can we learn from our past mistakes if we cannot remember them? We seem to make the same mistakes over and over again. Given the moral failure rate of human history, do we have any reason to hope that we will get it right in a future lifetime either.
I think we are afraid of the jeer about ???pie in the sky???... or either there is ???pie in the sky??? or there is not. If there is not, then Christianity is false, for this doctrine is woven into its whole fabric. If there is, then this truth, like any other, must be faced, whether it is useful at political meetings or not. But isn't it true that the essence of Christ's teachings is about how to live in this world? Can't we drop the concerns for the next world and still be good people?
But hope for heaven diverts us from making earth a better place to live in. I also feel very strongly that Christians are really traitors to the earth. Because their whole life on earth is spent on how to get to heaven. The only thing is concern for the next world is called "escapism."
Who talks the most against ???escapism???? Jailers. Think about it.
Everyone should love, and love your neighbor for their sake, not for your sake or the sake of your heavenly reward, to pile up brownie points. It's a bribe.
But aren't the pictures we have in our minds of heaven suspiciously earthly? Doesn't it look like wish fulfillment - meeting the dear departed dead on the other shore and all that?
Jesus assures us he is preparing our apartments (???mansions???) for us in heaven. He's got to be better than any earthly hotel manager. The one who designed us can certainly arrange a heaven that fit us. Uhm!
What I love is that many of you have answered my objections but no one has given any proof of heaven. How? Scientifically? We can't, and that is my point. I respect Christians, I may not respect their believes. If that could be done, no one would disbelieve wether there is a god or not. Then it's called blind faith. A big huge leap in the dark.
For whatever the reason church teaches us that there's a hell. Frankly it doesn't get any more barbaric. It a horrible stick to hit people over the head with, it clearly shows that the Church is based on fear. So if you are not a good Christian you are going straight to hell...lol But hell absolutely contradicts God's love. But if God is all-powerful, why can't he arrange for no one to go to hell?
Besides how can God accept anyone into heaven if your only motive is fear of hell? Isn't that low and mercenary? If you don't like goodness, you wouldn't like heaven.
I feel that we are in a great battle. We walk on a razors edge, and many Christians eyes are glued to the fires of hell in fear.
I walk in peace everyday and carry love as my big stick!
Peace in love.
Happy Easter Day!
macdoug wrote:SweetM. Thank you for the George Carlin input. The man is a genius. "Let's talk about the devil"... inspired. Happy Easter everyone. Chocolate is good for you. PAX.
Happy day to you too...you give my face a vacation everytime I read your messages. Thank you!
Happy Easter everybody. I couldn't find a rabbit nor a Playboy bunny so I had to borrow the dog from down the street.
How's that for evolution?
Happy easter.
willie c wuddle wrote: Happy Easter everybody. I couldn't find a rabbit nor a Playboy bunny so I had to borrow the dog from down the street. How's that for evolution?
What can I say...that is absolutely fabulous...I can't stop laughing Willie...
SweetMelody wrote: willie c wuddle wrote: Happy Easter everybody. I couldn't find a rabbit nor a Playboy bunny so I had to borrow the dog from down the street. How's that for evolution? What can I say...that is absolutely fabulous...I can't stop laughing Willie...
willie c wuddle wrote:Thank you, thank you, you're so kind.
Don't mention it. I'll always try to help!
God is dead, and no one cares, if there is a hell, I'll see you there...God is dead...
Does anyone else know the lyrics to that song and who sings it?
oneandonly wrote:well said melody and happy easter ,everyone.
It makes me warm and fuzzy inside to know that I am appreciated by so many great people, thank you!
oneandonly: I hope you are having a nice day,
Cheers!
The only ones who cannot answer the Chicken Question (hehe) are those who deny the scientific evidence of God.
For those of us who believe in God, the answer is simple:
God created the chicken.
In all due respect--Who gives a rats behind whether or not G-d exists? The point is that he does not have the right to be used to subjugate people. Moreover, from a non-political point-of-view, I am an atheist. I hope there is a Christian god though, because when I die and he wants to send me to hell, I want to debate and argue his decision with him forever and ever .I want to be that soul that is up in heaven arguing and complaining, stopping the whole line waiting to go through the pearly gates. Yah, I would be that person at the supermarket holding up the whole check out line because I want my double air miles point. I will not be ripped off in the after life.
However, from a metaphysical point of view nobody can say thus I say I am an agnostic. Let me say it for the record: I do not believe in God, Santa, Bill O???reilly, or the Easter Bunny.
To be honest who can really say that there is a God? Who? Has anyone seen him face to face? Had anyone met with him in a boardroom to discuss the war in Iraq? The Atrocities that have taken place on this earth? Someone once told me about religion, that "believing, is keep looking for answers" In addition, that is what every person should do. Keep searching for answers and keep discussing them.
Nevertheless, that is essence of organized religion. People become scared for not finding the answers as quick as they would like and take some holy book instead. This way the fear of not knowing fades and they can sleep in peace again.
But with these quick answers comes ignorance. Saying no to science, abortion and so much more, just because a book told them so. Because a book with ten rules puts them in a corner. And it doesn???t matter if the rules are good or not, the fact is it stops development of the human mind. It stops a human???s spirituality; it stops a human???s creativity. And all of these things are needed to develop into a stronger person. Develop yourself and don't let a priest, a holy book tell you were your development stops!
My conclusion is, I will keep searching for answers. Real answers. And maybe someday Ill find something, maybe not. At least I knew I searched myself and didn't take the first best thing on my path as an answer!
"If G-d is a boss in Heaven means he a boss on Earth... if God did exist, it would be necessary to abolish him."
I"m still in awe!
~used cars-land-whiskey-manure-nails-fly swatters-racing forms-bongos~* International Lover** Worldwide Traveller & Playgirl**wars fought * governments run * uprising quelled * revolution started * assassinations plotted * bars emptied * tigers tamed *parties crashed *orgies organized,computers verified*!
P.S. I know I am going straight to h-ll, do not pass go, do not collect airmiles, I am going down, but at the very least, I said my piece...my truth!
Thanks guys!
..Uhmmmm! inter-resting...
sassy_chick wrote:Now that impressed me!!! Very impressive and well said Melody
I have a big mouth sometimes, but I say what most will not. Sometimes I speak for the silent majority. I like to challenge people and thoughts. I love a good debate as long as we may be friends or at least allies in the end, then I feel it was all worth it.
Thank you for letting me know, I am not entirely koo koo, for holding such radical views.
Oh...gee whiz! Our site has a condensed version of a Biblical Course Module which we designed a year ago for new Christians.... I just re-checked the content, and it appears we have one handbook called "Creationism, Atheism and Evolution....
Ha... I shoulda posted that rather than the initial article.
Since everything we offer on-site is free, I thought maybe some of you would like to read some our own material....it's up to you, of course...
If you'd like something challenging, click me
BibleThumper wrote:Melody:Your argument only reinforces my belief in Jesus.
Dearest Bible Thumper,
Not to attack you or anything but, wouldn't you agree this could be true, "That there is NO God!"
???He who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.???-Bakunin
May I suggest to you that many people go to church for the same reasons they go to a Tavern: to stupefy themselves, to forget their misery, to imagine themselves, for a few minutes anyway, free and happy.???
So tell me what is the difference between an oppressor here, and an oppressor in the supposed "here-after? If you fight oppression, wouldn't that imply all oppression? (Just a couple of thoughts)
Christianity, especially, is and has always been a reactionary ideology. Christ said many times that the job of the slave is to be obedient to his master. It is logically impossible to be both a Christian and a communist or a fascist.
See religion promises that suffering in this life will be rewarded in the next. It is just another way to keep people docile.
You know what I say:
"Work for a better life now; do not be tricked into believing that you will be rewarded for your faith."
Furthermore, the reason you ??? yourself oppose other religions is that non-belief in a god is so very irrational. Good grief...there is no reason to rationally conclude that God exists ??? or does not exist, but it is not rational to worship anything that you do not know whether it is there or not. Secondly, I oppose religions in general because religion is an inverted view of the world. The root of man is man, not "morality,??? "karma,??? or "God".
Any God that does not have the time to show himself to me is not worthy of my worship. Thus the reason there is so much religious conflict is because nobody's god(s) will come out and tell everybody what the one true religion is. I wonder why.
But back to the issue...
First of all, what is a God? (please answer the question for yourself and tell me, ok)
Is God a spiritual being capable of the most astonishing things? A big man in the sky that created us to his image?
See not even you can determine what you are looking for, ultimately you are looking for the meaning of life...Yes that old "what the heck am I doing here" dilemma...
I can only say that, I do not know what's the meaning of life, no one knows, and maybe because there isn't one, or prehaps only me/you determine your own meaning of life...
Of course if you loath life and living things, you will become a bitter, destructive person, that just doesn't care about anyone else, your life will have no meaning, or better, the meaning of your life may very well be the action of ending the life of other's...
Yet of course, if you love life, not only yours, but the one of those who surrounds you, the meaning of life will be the preservation of the same.
???My conclusion is that there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology and, further, that there is no reason to wish that they were true. Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.??? -Russell
I am so full with glee that I-SweetMelody was able to restore and deepen even your faith...see how that works.
Peace,
SweetMelody
P.S. All this does not mean I don't respect or even slightly understand religious people, yet in order for me to respect and understand you, you should do the same and at least listen...or you can always call me the ultimate heretic.. I will not mind
Bible Thumper since you appear to be so knowledgeable about god lets talk about the Devil for a minute... OK two minutes. Does the devil really exist and where is he hiding?
You can bet on it. Other churches would empty and the only one that everyone would want to go to, is the one where the devil would be making an appearance. Why?
Because the idea of Satan has that je ne sais qoui that forms an integral part of our worship, our being. It is our reason for hope because for hope to exist, the fear of hopelessness has to be there to. We simply cannot do without him even though we profess outwardly that we hate him and would never want to have an encounter with him.
We all know that for one to completely vanquish an enemy or a hated one, all you need is to eject him out of our lives, our discourses, and our thoughts. But we do not do this with the devil.
We keep him alive, we give him significance; we make him the competing character of the business of worship.
Yet, we also know that we do not have to keep both God and the Devil side by side in order to extol the virtues of God and magnify the evil of the devil. If the goodness of God is an immanence in the affairs and history of the universe, it need not be prove by the creation or the comparison of its opposite. Evil too is an all-pervading thing and it need not be compared to good for it to attain significance.
Which brings me to the other question: If the devil is there and is responsible for the evil that we see, and seeing that in all the years human beings have engaged in the business of hating him they have not succeeded, why don???t the churchmen including BibleThumper adopt another technique to beat him? Why don???t they just give him a blackout and see if he will fight back (if at all he exists)?
Why, if we are sincere in vanquishing him, do we not try to deal him what may amount to a coup de grace, let him vanish from our thoughts and then concentrate in worshipping God purely on the basis of the fact that we owe fealty to Him as our creator and not a creator who, if we do not keep pummeling His adversary, would be eclipsed by him?
By the way...I can be quite Devilish at times...forwarned
If we did this, we probably would get the answer to this troublesome question: Can religion exist without the devil?
notme wrote:too long to read
If such a concise and brief *NOT long, as you state* article cannot be read for it's length, then I see WHY you would not believe in Jesus Christ; it's because you refuse to actually read the evidence
In Yeshua,
Dan
BibleThumper wrote: notme wrote:too long to read If such a concise and brief *NOT long, as you state* article cannot be read for it's length, then I see WHY you would not believe in Jesus Christ; it's because you refuse to actually read the evidence In Yeshua, Dan
sassy_chick wrote:Hey "notme"...Mouth from the other forum i think is wanting you to email him..He left a post..haha
he is welcome to his beliefs but i hope he understands that not everyone shares them.
oneandonly wrote:he is welcome to his beliefs but i hope he understands that not everyone shares them.
oneandonly wrote:actually all posters here are very respectful and some are downright blunt in the views but i think you will enjoy your posting experiences.
hahahahaha hehehehehehehehe
sassy_chick wrote:hahahahaha hehehehehehehehe