Many people make the claim that it is "true for me" or "my belief" and therefore justify there claim to becoming autonomus. This however is not justifiable and in reality, reletavism is self refuting.

1) Do you make the claim, "there is no exclusive truth"? Then I ask you, what would you say to me if I came to you and made the assertion that there is indeed absolute truth. In fact, truth, in its very nature is absolute, and exclusive. You would likely exclude my argument by appealing to you claim that, "there is no exclusive truth". You face fundemental errors however when you exclude my first principle by appealing to yours. You exclusively claim there is no exclusive truth, therefore, you make your truth exclusive and your presupposition becomes self refuting.

2) There is exclusive truth, the Bible. And in order to prove the Bible wrong you must prove that God does not exist because the Bible is God's infallible word. Herein lies my challenge. You cannot appeal to the faulty presupposition of reletavism as it is self refuting.

Evan, brother....

I think your words are too "big" for Catostrophic Influence haha

Then again.... he may reply

Ahh yes, the circular argumentation argument. Okay...

You prove to me the Bible is false using NO SECULAR LITERATURE. In fact, prove the Bible false using the Bible. That is rediculous you say, indeed it is.

You tell us to prove the Bible true without using the Bible. In other words, prove every pagan philosophy false, using pagan philosophy. Can you see the ludicruos nature of your thinking. In order for me to prove the president lives in the white house, I must look in the white house. In order for me to prove the Bible is true I must use the Bible.

EVAN:  I for one am not asking you to prove a damned book is faulty or true, better yet, I am TELLING YOU to point out your GOD to me !!!..........So no, you can't do that....this much I know for a fact.Which makes your word,your bible,your related beliefs, a PURE SAC OF    !!!

JD

 

Good point I might say!

CI... you do ask people to "prove God" and then say, "But you can;t use the Bible!".

Well, why not?

If the Bible is a book of fairy tales... can you prove it IS a book of fairy tales?

Try.

But remember, you can;t use anything but the Bible to prove it is a book of fairy tales.

You will not allow US to use the Bible to prove the Bible; so, why not show US that the Bible is false using NOTHING in secular writings?

I'm certainly not going to go to secular writings.

wwjd ........yes I can prove it is indeed a book of fairy tales !

 

Your own screw-ups are very valid to this...

One newer thread proves it !

-------->Can't say nothing about gays !!!why?.........

---->once jesus died, the laws(leviticus 18:22) became VOID, because once jesus died, people were granted the grace of god !!!
Hence, since leviticus was part of the "old testement" and jesus died in the "new testement"...and jesus' death put everybody who was cleansed , in gods graces, that would nul the book leviticus !!! So haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !

 

Next....always using the bible as my tool to prove it's own corruption !

---->its in the bible , that the death of christ ends all laws for all whom believe!

 

----->Various versions of the bible like: king james version, the new king james version and the 21st century king james version, the new life version, holman christian standard bible .........and more.....it's like telephone game, where one guy speaks to the next guy...so on and so on.....at the end, it's a complete fairytale !!!

 

---------> there's more ,but it's getting late for me at the moment....I'll touch this again later on....

 

 

 

JD

Catastrophic Influence wrote:

wwjd ........yes I can prove it is indeed a book of fairy tales !

 

Your own screw-ups are very valid to this...

One newer thread proves it !

-------->Can't say nothing about gays !!!why?.........

---->once jesus died, the laws(leviticus 18:22) became VOID, because once jesus died, people were granted the grace of god !!!
Hence, since leviticus was part of the "old testement" and jesus died in the "new testement"...and jesus' death put everybody who was cleansed , in gods graces, that would nul the book leviticus !!! So haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !

 

Next....always using the bible as my tool to prove it's own corruption !

---->its in the bible , that the death of christ ends all laws for all whom believe!

 

----->Various versions of the bible like: king james version, the new king james version and the 21st century king james version, the new life version, holman christian standard bible .........and more.....it's like telephone game, where one guy speaks to the next guy...so on and so on.....at the end, it's a complete fairytale !!!

 

---------> there's more ,but it's getting late for me at the moment....I'll touch this again later on....

 

 

 

JD

 

JD,

I respect your views...you have read my thoughts on religion...But putting "so haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa in your arguments kinda knocks the respect level down a few pegs."  You are an intelligent enough man with your words that I think you can think of better words...

very well ...........I agree the so haaaaaaaaaa was coming down to their level...

thats about it tho, I've got my pride, even tho it goes to far sometimes to some...

Truth is what I feel. 

I, like many of you, lament that belief in objective truths that can be widely shared is under sustained assault from "secular liberalism" and elite academic thinkers. This postmodern outlook states: an individual creates or chooses truth at a particular time. Such relativism is percolating through Western culture.

It is well know that the West's drift from belief in objective truths about morality, religion and politics involves "a culturally pervasive yet intellectually degraded concept of truth" that must be eliminated if we're to enjoy "authentic tolerance. They also complain that distorted ideas of tolerance cast a dark cloud of suspicion over tradition-minded Christians, since permanent truth, irrespective of cultural norms or conditions, is at the heart of the Christian faith.

Though believers in absolute truth are commonly treated as intolerant bigots. But that the contemporary reduction of truth to personal preference restricts toleration and is far narrow-minded rather than liberating.Contrary to what many people think, tolerance needs truth. I am a firm believer in tolerance, which I regard as essential for freedom, including religious freedom, democratic self-government and defeat of tyranny. But many insist there's no conflict between tolerance and personal and political commitments to truth.

Howver, on the contrary, truth is necessary for "genuine tolerance" and no nation can endure if it insists on the cultural confusion of associating truth with intolerance because all successful societies need shared moral principles.

Moreover, secular liberalism cannot provide convincing support for tolerance or any other principles it favors, because it makes everything a matter of personal preference or social construction without substance or validity.The official relativism of secular liberalism can offer no firm reasons why people ought to be tolerant.

We must also acknowledge that intolerant Christians employed forced conversion in centuries past but  Jesus' biblical example forbids compelled belief. For Christianity, faith is authentic only when people assent individually, without coercion. Truth needs a context of tolerance to do its work, to be itself. Actually, secular liberalism also affirms the unconditional truth of its preferred moral judgments, for instance on issues such as same-sex marriage and abortion, and embraces relativism only when it's needed to oppose traditional Jewish and Christian moral teachings. Two absolutes and two worldviews are clashing and everyone is an absolutist on one side or the other, thy contend.

 

This is too much hocus pocus for me...the "truth" is, I am not sure I want to touch this subject because I always get myself in trouble here.

And once again, Influence, you're wrong.

1- Show me where Jesus EVER said He did away with the Law.

2- Show me ANYWHERE in the Bible, either New or Old Testament, where it says ANYWHERE that Jesus did away with the Law.

Now...

You're referring to a fals eteaching called "Antinomianism", which makes Grace appear to be a lawless thing given to Christians....however, you're incorrect, and wherever you received this idea, I can guarantee you didn;t get it from Scripture.

Jesus SPECIFICALLY said in Matthew 5:18

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

You see, Influence, you've made a terrible mistake, as many do...

Jesus did away with CEREMONIAL laws, such as sacrificail laws, dietary, etc etc...

However, He did not do away with the MORAL law.

Luke 16:17

And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

So.... I guess you're running out of explainations on why the Bible is a fairy tale book, huh?

So far, every argument you've presented has been crushed by factual evidence.

And once again....

You have an empty argument....

I have an empty Tomb.

..........that's your version of that book.............did you see how many more there is.....you'll be here for weeks bud !

 

EDIT:

ADDED-=---->

 

Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

JD

more versions.........

 

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

 

 

JD

The end of the OT Ceremonial laws.

You need to study the ceremonial law, dietary law and the moral laws before you throw one or two verses out there...

the entire book of James teaches we keep the moral law.

you need to study more

Punk wrote:

This is too much hocus pocus for me...the "truth" is, I am not sure I want to touch this subject because I always get myself in trouble here.

Just give me a hand putting the furniture back together.

Oh and Influence, here's the CLINCHER, showing you really are TERRIBLY wrong.

You said YOUSELF that the law is "void".

Here's an answer for you, again showing that you'r emost likely googling your statements:

Your VERY WORD was "Void"...remember that:

Romans 3:30-31

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

[20] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

[21] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness sh

 

should have been by the law.

[22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

[25] But after th

 

 

that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

[27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, an

and heirs according to the promise

Galatians 18-29

JD

The end of the OT Ceremonial laws.

You need to study the ceremonial law, dietary law and the moral laws before you throw one or two verses out there...

the entire book of James teaches we keep the moral law.

you need to study more

James 2:10

 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So if there is one law kept then they are all kept and Jesus died for nothing...

 

spyn wrote:

James 2:10

 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So if there is one law kept then they are all kept and Jesus died for nothing...

 

Spyn, you underestimate WHY Jesus came....

1- Man cannot keep the moral law.

2- Jesus came because of that; for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God...

3- What is sin? Paul tells the Romans that sin is the TRANGRESSION OF THE LAW.

4- Jesus died because the wages of sin, breaking the Moral Law (our conscience), is eternal death and separation from God.

5- If one repents of breaking the Moral Law (wilfully sinning against his or her conscience) and places his or her Faith in Jesus Christ, then one receives the Holy Spirit WITHIN his or her heart.

6- The Holy Spirit then causes the New Believer to be FREE from habits and life controlling patterns which he or she, without the Power of God, could not overcome.

7- Once the Believer is FREE from the power of sin, he or she no longer walks in sin and thus does not break the Moral Law of God.

8- This comes ONLY through the reception of Salvation, which is WHY Jesus died.

Man, lets all take leviticus literally and see where it gets us. Wouldn't that world be fucked up?

willie c wuddle wrote:

Punk wrote:

This is too much hocus pocus for me...the "truth" is, I am not sure I want to touch this subject because I always get myself in trouble here.

Just give me a hand putting the furniture back together.

Yeah but what if I drop and break something then I 'm in even more trouble. But certainly I am alway ready to help my fellow forum member.

First off to insult a person's intellegence you should first do a spell check. Second of all, it is a well known fact that when the Bible first went into print it was handwritten and changed for many generations. There have been pieces of the bible that have been "revised".

Why is it that the believers always say to prove there isn't a God, when all they have to prove there is  is a book that is BS anyways. If all you want is a good novel, I have a couple of shelves full.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, If there was a God, why would he allow bad things to happen to his followers?

Spyn, I was using satire to provoke a smile; not an insult.

My comments, secondly, were not meant to rail against CL, your boyfriend.

Lastly, take a peek at your BF's posts ALL OVER THE FORUM.... he uses satire also; and we're in agreement that it's NOT insulting.

Please allow him to post his own words next time.. he's a big boy and doesn;t need anyone else answering for him...unless, that is, he gave you a permission slip?  (you can smile now)

I wasn't coming down on you and I apologize if you think I was. I realize you do have a sense of humour. I  come on strong at times when something gets me worked up. Unsurprisingly, religion does it every time.

So enough with this and let the debate begin....Yayyyy

spyn wrote:

I wasn't coming down on you and I apologize if you think I was. I realize you do have a sense of humour. I  come on strong at times when something gets me worked up. Unsurprisingly, religion does it every time.

So enough with this and let the debate begin....Yayyyy

Cool Cool...I sensed some animosity there... then again, I'm not good at reaidng people :-)

As for my spelling... watch it young lady

..the bible was written by a prophet by the name of Jehovah . Prove that wrong !...just can't do-it without reading yet another stupid line from that book ,yet again! Get your nose out of the book for a second, and just listen to what I am saying(do you not hear a word that is coming out of my mouth? !!!) ...Not everyone else.....just me ! Now if your nose is out of that book, I will continue....I am not a disbeliever ! I completely agree that "jesus" existed ! But , that's just that......he , a prophet if you will, existed, wrote a few books, and passed them along to carry out his knowledge of what "HE" thought was the true meaning of it all. That's it ....nothing more, nothing less....So see, your not even listening to what I'm talking about ! I'm not putting down "your idea of a lord" I'm putting down your countless accusations, insults, manipulations and your constant bickering of your lord and repents and what not that you keep forking in my face and others !!!You don't see me and others like me Pressuring my beliefs on you? You don't see me saying Your gonna die because you put your nose to close to the book..it just might give you papercuts and you'll bleed to death !Or anyother thing for that matter ! I simply say what I know and fully believe because , it is not written, nor inscripted anywhere...it is a shocking reality ,and truth ,lying in front of me !For you to swallow any of this, is none of my concern, nor do I even care whether you believe it or not ! I'm not going to pressure you nor manipulate you into doing so either.But you will ! Your kind always does ! So if you were not understanding it before, I hope you will now, because I just reveiled to you the simple truth on why we get mad, or get mean or whaever...This whole paragraph I just wrote, is it...we just want this kind of discussion to remain just that, a discussion...not a bloody who's right and wrong, who's god is real or not....You getting it now??? Cause no matter how "powerfull" Dan thinks your words are towards me....there are absolutly nothing that can shake me down nor give me papercuts

 

 

JD

You have no basis for your argumentation. Are you the final authority for truth? If you say something like "I am the final authority for MY truth" then you again plead autonomy.

You cannot prove anything about anything. You have no presupposition but your own word, or the word of another fallible human being. You base you entire worldview upon faulty human speculation.

I base my worldview upon the infallible word of God.

You did not even present a valid argument.

You said::
""the bible was written by a prophet by the name of jehovah""

The Bible claims numerous times to be the infallible word of God. But it is funny, you cannot prove that statement right.

Ah! nice to see everyone getting along! children play nicely

---->Bulert:

quote: play nicely !

 Answer----> Always !

 

 

JD

Interesting -- Did you know you borrow Christian presuppositions for every decision you make, whether it is right, or wrong. You have no basis of knowledge, ethics, metaphysics, etc. apart from God. You must borrow from the Christian worldview in EVERYTHING you do.

I don't get how you can keep makign arguments but use quotes from the Bible to for example someone like CI. If we don't believe in teh book, how will you make us see the light with those quotes. Can't you come up with something better. The word of God, according to you is the Bible.I'm just so sick of seeing this Bible being quoted when our arguments are all that the bible is simply a book. A very talented person who wanted to put fear in the eyes of others and that has been translated and modified to see fit. I just want to see other arguments other than the Bible being quoted.

LOL ! Yaaaaa !

Thats like the quote I keep getting hit with all the time:

Prove to me Jesus doesn't exist ! Woahahahaa !

Well here's a good one for use all-------->Prove to me he does And don't uses dare shove a book in this conversation !........-------> point me out this fellow...Where is he?----> I can point you out all of my points both imaterial and material ! Why can't you's do the same?  You really don't want me to answer that one, it might hurt your ears !!!

 

 

 

JD

CI they can't do that because all they have to go by is that Bible. So for them if they can't quote it, they have no argument. Which is fine by me cause I think I have read the Bible once again (something I never thought I would do again, yes again as I've read it before) through this forum with all those quotes.

What if the Bible is only one book of a massive library? The rest of the books could have been held back from us by people who run the world.

OMG I sure hope not then there will be more books to quote.

Cautiouslizard wrote:

they can't do that because all they have to go by is that Bible. So for them if they can't quote it, they have no argument.

Well, at least we HAVE an argument.

I think our argument is MUCH better than "My doctor told me so ....and I believe it".

really? Well who told you teh Bilbe was a true story? And are you telling me that you believing in God isn't good enough as per your oen statement

quote "I think our argument is MUCH better than "My doctor told me so ....and I believe it"."

So you believing is no valid argument cause you just told me so, Yeah that's right you did lol

  

WOW now that's a bike lol.

Had to one up me didn't ya...You are just mad because I wouoldn't show you my ass in the other thread..hehehehehe    

Holy crap willie lol do not come close to my car or house with one of those. I'm not to sure you could resist lol