Is homosexuality condoned or condemned by God?

Why of why not?

I think GOD doesn't judge a person based on sexual preference. He may or may not like the idea but I beleive he judges all people fairly and without bias. I can envision Jesus sitting comfortably at a table with a bunch of gentlemen of bent persuasion without any trouble as long as nobody pinched him on the bum. Then I think there would be a major round of fisticuffs.

Don't worry about me being offended.. I love a good debate on this subject.  Of course, as long as it's kept "clean".

I have copied something I had posted in another forrum and will add in attempt to answer a few of your questions.

"I believe in reincarnation.. we have several lives here on earth which sometimes we are man and others woman. These beliefs are becoming more and more popular as time go by. Some gifted people are able to communicate and even visit the after life and spirits. One of my favorite "Sylvia Browne" is one of the many capable of this.

Their is 26 different versions of the bible. Before it was Revised and after Pope Constantine decided to exclude the concept of reincarnation from Christianity they were quotes in regards to reincarnation which would prove it exists.

In order to better our soul, we decide to leave home and come back here on earth. We are then "attracted" by people who we have unfinished business or better still, have things to learn from.

It's no mistake.. why resist and fail what you were out to do in the first place.

Evil is when you intentionally hurt someone.. gays, lesbians aren't hurting anyone."

Now, have you ever watched movies about fact or fiction? If so, you would be quite interested in some of the things that were actually "facts" and proven for that.

What about "the other side"; where people have proven over and over again that they were speaking with spirits.

You probably don't believe in "spychics" but take a look at one of my favorites "Sylvia Browne" and have her stand the hair on your head.  In her books, she explains alot about the other side because she's been there a few times. She also has a guide who she can ask questions too.  She has proven herself over and over while speaking to the dead and relaying messages.

I myself know for a fact Ghost follow me around. Maybe it's just a coincidence in the homes I've choosen, I don't know but I feel them. Our last house we had to move because of them. Talk about skeptical that would be my husband.. until he was in bed one day and felt something walking on him just to turn around and "nothing".

We also had tenants in that house who most of them have experienced something supernatural.  One day I put up my cam on motion sensored and for a few hours that night it recorded images..mostly blurr but all the same; it was there and moving around.

Your right, it is difficult to prove but alot of people have experienced some kind of supernaturals and based on that evidence; I'm a believer.

About where we go and what happends after dead "when we go back home".. those believes are based on my idol "sylvia browne". I accepted that as true because she has proven herself to me. She is also extremely close to God which is also comforting to me.

I'm not trying to change anyones beliefs; I like to share mine but I know we will all be believers in time.

As for the bible..I take comfort in some things sad; I also understand that it has been revised so many times it leaves people confused.

It's a great mistery waiting to be uncovered.

 

You state that "you believe" because "Sylvia proved" herself to you, hence her becoming your "idol".

Ok.

fair enough.

It's still only subjective EXPERIENCE.

I've already asked for objective FACTS.

You've given, thus far, not one shred of factual information to any of my questions, but have only dodged the q's by using a fraud such as Sylvia.

So, gimme some facts, so we can resume the original debate.

Turning to a caught-con artist is not "factual"...what you've done is given conjecture upon conjecture.

How so?

Want video and FACTUAL information on Sylvia being shown as a fraud?

Click Here

The above link presents factual, and I might add, irrefutable, evidence to show this "idol" of your's isn't at all what she claims :)

Now, how about answering the original q's one by one as they're given.

Anyone can say they "went to the other side" etc etc (And I DO believe there is another side!) yet it's still NOT based on factual information.

If you cannot give enough evidence to your claims which would stand beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law, why go further?

Hearsay and opinion are never the basis of Truth.... no one believes it is, at least not in a rational world.

Sure, I believe in the supernatural etc etc... however, I base what I believe on factual information that would stand in Court (and has, by the way, as a lawyer named Charles G Finney attested to)

As stated, I'll give my factual information on Jesus Christ and Him being the only Way....

However, you still haven't given your's.

Thus far, you've only given tales which cannot and have not been verified.

Give us something tangible and factual and objective; not something experience driven and subjective.

Lastly, as for the Bible being "revised".... again, that is but your opinion.... I am a student of Biblical Translation, and am well versed in defending any such statements.

With over 3 groups of manuscripts comprising over 6000 works, all manuscripts agree on almost every major point.

The only "revisions" hae been to make the Bible more understandable to the modern reader.

In the 16th century people went around saying "Thee" Thou" and "Thy"... today, we don;'t use this method of english; however, the MEANING is the same; the "revision" is simply a revision of understanding, not teaching or language itself.

I personally own copies of the Byzantine text, Masoretic and Textus Receptus of the Scriptures.

If you have no idea what those manuscripts are or their history, then you cannot then claim anything about the Bible being "revised" so many times.

If you're correct, prove it and I'll easily show your argument to be faulty.

A student of Scripture must, objectively, come to his understanding of those Scriptures with a non biased outlook.

If you cannot tell me what the Greek word Sozo means, then you certainly cannot tell me that my Bible has been revised.

Now...where are those facts?

Dan

I stoped reading your above post once I felt attacked...yet, I do seem to have more proof than you do anyway.

I haven't seen any "evidence" on your theory lol.  You started by saying and "don't ask me to prove before you do";

Enough said; if you can't debate fairly than your on your own buddy!

Take the blind fold off your eyes btw; if you haven't even looked at the subject with an open eye then how in the world will you convience anyone? by saying they are frauds? lmfo! Not me you won't.

 

1- Your reasoning is circular.
2- I gave the evidence your little star is a fraud
3- I alreayd told you I would post MY evidence
4- I attacked no one; I gave facts.AGAIN, you said "once I FELT attacked"....you're obviously an emotionally led individual who sees truth in what you FEEL rathe rthan in objectivity.
5-To debate with you is useless, as you cannot, have not and refuse to come to terms with ethical standards of truth.

Dan

PS: You said:  Enough said; if you can't debate fairly than your on your own buddy!

Answer: Again, you are ruled by your own biased opinion.
You say "if I cannot debate fairly"

What are you talking about?

I said "don't ask me what I believe until you show me what you believe"...

I said that BECAUSE it's fair.

It's fair to give YOU the opportunity to have "the floor", so to speak, to show your points as factual.

That's what a fair debate IS; it's allowing one to have his turn and then the next person their's.

You're obviously not very well versed in many rational matters.

If you were, you wouldn't have copped out with "you attacked me" blah blah blah.

You would have answered the q's as they were given.

I feel sad for you that you believe only what you WANT to believe, regardless of whether or not they are correct.

I gave factual evidence to show Sylvia is a con, and you claim I'm wrong in calling her a fraud?

I WOULD be wrong if I had no basis for that accusation; however, as you noticed, I posted an entire WEBSITE which exposes her methodically.

I think you should reconsider the types of con artists which have brainwashed you into refusing to think rationally :)

BibleThumper wrote:

1- Your reasoning is circular.
2- I gave the evidence your little star is a fraud
3- I alreayd told you I would post MY evidence
4- I attacked no one; I gave facts.AGAIN, you said "once I FELT attacked"....you're obviously an emotionally led individual who sees truth in what you FEEL rathe rthan in objectivity.
5-To debate with you is useless, as you cannot, have not and refuse to come to terms with ethical standards of truth.

Dan

PS: You said:  Enough said; if you can't debate fairly than your on your own buddy!

Answer: Again, you are ruled by your own biased opinion.
You say "if I cannot debate fairly"

What are you talking about?

I said "don't ask me what I believe until you show me what you believe"...

I said that BECAUSE it's fair.

It's fair to give YOU the opportunity to have "the floor", so to speak, to show your points as factual.

That's what a fair debate IS; it's allowing one to have his turn and then the next person their's.

You're obviously not very well versed in many rational matters.

If you were, you wouldn't have copped out with "you attacked me" blah blah blah.

You would have answered the q's as they were given.

I feel sad for you that you believe only what you WANT to believe, regardless of whether or not they are correct.

I gave factual evidence to show Sylvia is a con, and you claim I'm wrong in calling her a fraud?

I WOULD be wrong if I had no basis for that accusation; however, as you noticed, I posted an entire WEBSITE which exposes her methodically.

I think you should reconsider the types of con artists which have brainwashed you into refusing to think rationally :)

  yo dude ,take a chill pill!

:)

Hi all.. first post here. *waves*

By the looks at this thread, it seems people have a different understanding of what sin is... and not specifically what words/thoughts/deeds but what constitutes as a sin. Sin is our selfishness against the Uncreated Creator. He created us in His image, that is to say perfect and good, with freewill to create choices. We are not robots programmed with functions and error handling, nor are we created as animals with no soul, but we have a spirit as He does, we have personality, depths of thought, creativity to create/invent, etc.  He found us pleasing and good.

Sin is when we choose to do what WE want for our OWN pleasure, departing from His good purpose. Choosing to fornicate to please ourselves, choosing to murder, to hate, to lust, to lie, to blaspheme His holy name, all these are our choices to which we do have the ability to choose to do, BUT not the right. The concequences are grave... and eternal because we've violated His law, and offended an eternal GOD. The consequences are dependant on to whom we offend.  If I attempt to murder you, I might get 6 months to 2 years in prison.  But if I attempt to murder the president, I might get 20+ years. This is because he (regardless if you like him or not) is of greater value to the system of people (in our case, the US).  And being that God is the greater, being of the greatest value of all the universe and all creation, will also have the greatest concequences for offending Him.  Eternal!

And to this one He will look, to him who is humble and contrite of spirit and who trembles at His word.

Amen! You described the Bible's view of sin absolutely on the button!

To sin against man is bad enough; to sin against the One True God is eternally consequential!

Homosexuality is sinful, wicked and those who practice it are cursed, abominable and not saved.

Homosexuals must repent!

and I agree.. one shouldn't be swearing his head off; we/I have done that often enough without thinking; I'm not proud of it and asked forgiveness; but I doubt I'm going to hell because of it; God, at least the "God I know" is a forgiving God;  He knows we ain't perfect. He gives us chances; that's my opinon.

Hey, and don't tell me it's only an opinion bla bla bla "Stomper" cause I haven't seen you give any real FACTS except tell us we haven't proven anything to YOUR liking as of yet.  Oh well!

Plus, you haven't "been" there either so.. umm isn't it a mistery for all?  Almost seems childish fighting over something noone knows for sure..

The "God you know" doesn't exist.

The God of the BIBLE will judge you for idolatry because you have a false god; a god which exists in your imagination.

Repent and come to the One True God who alone can save you!

But do you even REALIZE what your saying??? your putting words in my mouth/mind lmfo!!!!  Now THAT'S  a sin.. anything to get ahead huh?  Bull ***! Your no better than me and that's no opinion!  Go away!

SoulsBreath wrote:

Hey, and don't tell me it's only an opinion bla bla bla "Stomper" cause I haven't seen you give any real FACTS except tell us we haven't proven anything to YOUR liking as of yet.  Oh well!

Plus, you haven't "been" there either so.. umm isn't it a mistery for all?  Almost seems childish fighting over something noone knows for sure..

There. Something I can agree with.

These discussions drive me nuts because the only argument that keeps coming back is "The Bible says...." or "bla bla bla because God said so". You won't accept any of our arguments because we can't prove that God doesn't exit but on the other hand, you have shown no proof either. These arguments are useless, because I know I won't change anyone's opinion, and I damn well know I'm not gonna change mine either. I'm done talking about God in these forums because to be honest, I'm getting sick of reading the same *** over and over. Yes we are all going to hell, so lets all shut up about it and enjoy life while it lasts.

Unlike you, I actually DO know the factaul information.

Here it is:

Facts On Homosexuality:

Fordham University Dissertation
Furthers Spitzer's Landmark Study
on Sexual Re-orientation Success
Dr. A. Dean Byrd Reviews Dissertation on
Factors In Re-orientation Success

March 13, 2006 - In a doctoral dissertation directed by Dr. Jay C. Wade, Department of Psychology, Fordham University, New York, Elan Y. Karten investigates the psychological and religious characteristics of dissatisfied same-sex attracted men who seek sexual re-orientation interventions.

As a logical follow-up to Spitzer's landmark study, the Karten research was specifically designed to investigate the following: the respondent's relationship to his father; type of sexual self-identity; quality of psychological relatedness to other men; and which form of religious values demonstrated the strongest relationship to change. Karten defined "success" in this study as "an increase in heterosexual functioning, a decrease in homosexual functioning, improved psychological well-being, and a greater heterosexual identity."

Among Karten's most robust findings: treatment success is best predicted by a reduction in conflict regarding the expression of non-sexual affection toward other men.

This finding has important theoretical and clinical implications. Perhaps for some boys, early childhood development of strong, non-sexual relationships with other males will prevent the development of homosexuality. Such a theory finds support in the psychodynamic literature, as well as the more recent "Exotic Becomes Erotic" (EBE) theory of Daryl Bem. In addition, Karten's finding strongly suggests that development of healthy, non-sexual relationships with men is an important part of the treatment process. His finding also provides supportive evidence for the effectiveness of men's groups that foster healthy, non-sexual male relationships.

Karten also found significant differences in the perceived effectiveness of traditional psychotherapy, religious interventions, alternative approaches, and self-education. Interestingly, traditional psychotherapy was rated as the least helpful intervention in this category. Religious interventions, alternative approaches and self-education were deemed important. The psychological variables examined in the study such as high lack of psychological relatedness to other men, reduction of conflict associated with restrictive affectionate behavior between men, heterosexual identity, high intrinsic religiosity, and absent/weak bonding with father as a group predicted treatment success. Men who became more comfortable in expressing their thoughts and feelings to other men and those who became comfortable with non-sexualized touch demonstrated a significant advantage in treatment.

Contrary to expectations, Karten's findings indicate that the more one identified as heterosexual, the less change there was in the individual's sexual feelings and behavior toward both women and men. Logically, Karten concluded that the more an individual self-identifies as heterosexual, "the less likely the individual would even seek change in his orientation to be more heterosexual."

Of particular interest was the finding that problematic masculinity may be more amenable to sexual reorientation interventions than an absent/weak paternal bond. This finding suggests that homosexual attractions may be more related to gender (a sense of maleness or masculinity) than to sexuality itself. Also, it may suggest that treatment aimed at strengthening gender identity may be more efficacious than focusing on strengthening parental bonds.

Thus Karten's study, along with others, adds to the body of clinical and research data that conclude that homosexuality is more fluid than fixed. Indeed, the quality of such research, mentored by seasoned professionals, provides scientific evidence to refute the repeated claims of The American Psychological Association (APA) that there is "no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation." The Spitzer study provided clear evidence to the contrary. And now, the Karten study expands on the Spitzer study by identifying factors that are associated with treatment success.

With such data providing support for the efficacy of reparative therapy with some individuals, the question of the ethics of APA discouraging such therapy now becomes center stage. No longer can the opponents of reparative therapy state there is no scientific evidence of its effectiveness. More importantly, as reparative therapy is studied, perhaps it is time for APA to insist on data to support the efficacy of other therapies, including gay affirmative therapy.

The ethical route demands the following: clients should be informed of the possibility that they may be disappointed if therapy (for any reason) does not succeed, so they can make a rational decision whether or not enter therapy. Offering such a choice should be fundamental to any therapeutic endeavor, and is central to client autonomy and client self-determination. In fact, it is clearly unethical for any professional, informed by the literature and guided by evidence-based interventions, to deny the choice of therapy to those who are unhappy with their same-sex attractions and seek therapy to diminish those attractions.

Though such research into sexual reorientation may be viewed as politically incorrect, no longer can it be ignored. Sociopolitical concerns must not interfere with the scientist's freedom to research any reasonable hypothesis, or to explore the efficacy of any reasonable treatment.

Elan Karten, supported by his mentors at Fordham University, has made a major contribution to the scientific literature. He has departed from the academy which has so often capitulated to political correctness, and has agreed with Dr. Robert Spitzer who noted that "science progresses by asking interesting questions, not by avoiding questions whose answers might not be helpful in achieving a political agenda." Perhaps other universities will follow Fordham's lead.

BibleThumper wrote:

Unlike you, I actually DO know the factaul information.

Here it is:

Facts On Homosexuality:

Fordham University Dissertation
Furthers Spitzer's Landmark Study
on Sexual Re-orientation Success
Dr. A. Dean Byrd Reviews Dissertation on
Factors In Re-orientation Success

March 13, 2006 - In a doctoral dissertation directed by Dr. Jay C. Wade, Department of Psychology, Fordham University, New York, Elan Y. Karten investigates the psychological and religious characteristics of dissatisfied same-sex attracted men who seek sexual re-orientation interventions.

As a logical follow-up to Spitzer's landmark study, the Karten research was specifically designed to investigate the following: the respondent's relationship to his father; type of sexual self-identity; quality of psychological relatedness to other men; and which form of religious values demonstrated the strongest relationship to change. Karten defined "success" in this study as "an increase in heterosexual functioning, a decrease in homosexual functioning, improved psychological well-being, and a greater heterosexual identity."

Among Karten's most robust findings: treatment success is best predicted by a reduction in conflict regarding the expression of non-sexual affection toward other men.

This finding has important theoretical and clinical implications. Perhaps for some boys, early childhood development of strong, non-sexual relationships with other males will prevent the development of homosexuality. Such a theory finds support in the psychodynamic literature, as well as the more recent "Exotic Becomes Erotic" (EBE) theory of Daryl Bem. In addition, Karten's finding strongly suggests that development of healthy, non-sexual relationships with men is an important part of the treatment process. His finding also provides supportive evidence for the effectiveness of men's groups that foster healthy, non-sexual male relationships.

Karten also found significant differences in the perceived effectiveness of traditional psychotherapy, religious interventions, alternative approaches, and self-education. Interestingly, traditional psychotherapy was rated as the least helpful intervention in this category. Religious interventions, alternative approaches and self-education were deemed important. The psychological variables examined in the study such as high lack of psychological relatedness to other men, reduction of conflict associated with restrictive affectionate behavior between men, heterosexual identity, high intrinsic religiosity, and absent/weak bonding with father as a group predicted treatment success. Men who became more comfortable in expressing their thoughts and feelings to other men and those who became comfortable with non-sexualized touch demonstrated a significant advantage in treatment.

Contrary to expectations, Karten's findings indicate that the more one identified as heterosexual, the less change there was in the individual's sexual feelings and behavior toward both women and men. Logically, Karten concluded that the more an individual self-identifies as heterosexual, "the less likely the individual would even seek change in his orientation to be more heterosexual."

Of particular interest was the finding that problematic masculinity may be more amenable to sexual reorientation interventions than an absent/weak paternal bond. This finding suggests that homosexual attractions may be more related to gender (a sense of maleness or masculinity) than to sexuality itself. Also, it may suggest that treatment aimed at strengthening gender identity may be more efficacious than focusing on strengthening parental bonds.

Thus Karten's study, along with others, adds to the body of clinical and research data that conclude that homosexuality is more fluid than fixed. Indeed, the quality of such research, mentored by seasoned professionals, provides scientific evidence to refute the repeated claims of The American Psychological Association (APA) that there is "no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation." The Spitzer study provided clear evidence to the contrary. And now, the Karten study expands on the Spitzer study by identifying factors that are associated with treatment success.

With such data providing support for the efficacy of reparative therapy with some individuals, the question of the ethics of APA discouraging such therapy now becomes center stage. No longer can the opponents of reparative therapy state there is no scientific evidence of its effectiveness. More importantly, as reparative therapy is studied, perhaps it is time for APA to insist on data to support the efficacy of other therapies, including gay affirmative therapy.

The ethical route demands the following: clients should be informed of the possibility that they may be disappointed if therapy (for any reason) does not succeed, so they can make a rational decision whether or not enter therapy. Offering such a choice should be fundamental to any therapeutic endeavor, and is central to client autonomy and client self-determination. In fact, it is clearly unethical for any professional, informed by the literature and guided by evidence-based interventions, to deny the choice of therapy to those who are unhappy with their same-sex attractions and seek therapy to diminish those attractions.

Though such research into sexual reorientation may be viewed as politically incorrect, no longer can it be ignored. Sociopolitical concerns must not interfere with the scientist's freedom to research any reasonable hypothesis, or to explore the efficacy of any reasonable treatment.

Elan Karten, supported by his mentors at Fordham University, has made a major contribution to the scientific literature. He has departed from the academy which has so often capitulated to political correctness, and has agreed with Dr. Robert Spitzer who noted that "science progresses by asking interesting questions, not by avoiding questions whose answers might not be helpful in achieving a political agenda." Perhaps other universities will follow Fordham's lead.

Excuse me but I may be a little slow but I didn't feel like reading a book tonight;  What the HECK is that?

well... you wanted facts, so I gave them.

Not Biblical facts; these are medical and scientific facts, thsu showing that yoiur OWN secular world condemns, with factual medical and scientfic evidence, homosexuality.

These are doctors and genetic scientists.

What now?

A post saying "it's too long to read"?

A post denying the evidence?

What excuse for the above post will you present now?

Or will you repent and turn from your wickedness and come into the Glorious Presence of God?

Lord, have Mercy!

SoulsBreath wrote:

Lord, have Mercy!

Repent

Thanks for all that wonderful information. Its good to be informed and some people really dont like to listen to what the bible says. They turn off right away.  I know of some  ex "gays" who actually turned away from that sin because they came to see it was wrong and Gods ways are right and good. They are now speaking to gays to show that they dont have to continue; there is a way out. Jesus!   and infact they married women and are living a Godly life. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. That act caused Gods wrath on Sodom and Gomorra. But He always gives everyone a way out. Like now. Open your eyes and see.  A seed of truth doesnt always rest easy. It can actually shake you up abit and make you think. Make you feel uncomfortable. Thats good. I am sure Jesus weeps. He died and took away all our sins if we would only follow Him. Meaning saying God you are right your ways are pure. I repent meaning forgive me of doing my own thing and living in a cess pool..Show me your ways. God does exist he is real. Why turn your back on him?   He isnt there to give you bad things but good. Jesus took all our sins. So why hold onto them any longer?   God is patient with us.   But we have to make a decision while we are alive or it will be too late. We are here to serve God not ourselves. I mean look at the mess in the world. Dont blame God blame man. If we lived according to his direction we wouldnt be in this mess.   Come to Jesus!  Its like this. You may think you are in a wonderful mansion... there is a wall.. and over the other side of the wall is a castle which far outweights what you think is the best place to be living in...  You wont look over the wall... at the Castle so how do you know.. unless you look which is best?... Personally I wasnt a Christian all my life.  I did bad things. I lived in the mansion but now I am in the Castle. I have been where you are and know the difference experiencially. How about you? Same for those homosexuals who have left that way of life.

WHO THE *** CARES!

oneandonly wrote:

WHO THE *** CARES!

oneandonly, not to nit pick, and not to get your feathers ruffled, but didn't you ask Christians here to "respect" others in what THEY believe?

I would say that your post to NewSong is the most ignorant post from anyone here yet.

Who the "f" cares is a statement which smacks of being a hypocrite.

Why?

You say that WE lack respect and yet YOU go ahead and cuss at people whenever you feel like it.

Possibly you should press the edit button and delete that post to let people know you're not going to play the mean-guy game :)

look if someone wants to be homosexual it is their business and theirs alone.why would anyone want to judge them?why do you want to condemn someone for a lifestyle choice?

My post above didn't reference homoexuality, oneandonly.

My post above is about you cussing people out with the f word and then asking everyone else to "have respect".

THAT was what the above post was about.

Can't you simply admit that your cuss words were uncalled for?

I mean, I have no problem saying "I'm sorry".

I don't hate or dislike you, oneandonly.

I'm sure you and I could sit and have a civil discussion in person :)

I'm as regular as you are, friend :)

Oh, come on, let's decorate something.
Really!
You guys!

WTG Doug. Glad you're in Ottawa,not me, ya silver tongue devil.

When one says "I believe this or that", I can go with the thoughts; however, what do you base your beliefs on?

The Bible says if you have an image of God which is not correct you've created an idol, a violation of the 1st Commandment.

So, if you can "prove" with factual basis that reincarnation or whatever else is true and happens when we die, then I'll change my own religious beliefs.

Also, DO NOT ask me to "prove" my own religious beliefs before you first prove your's.

If reincarnation or an obese man named Buddah etc etc are truly valid beliefs, then prove it.

Otherwise, you may well be risking your own eternal soul on a system which is built on nothing more than your own imagination.

Also, if one gets into Heaven because of how YOU claim he/she gets into Heaven, what do you base such a belief on? Your own ideas or on something factual?

Don;t avoid these questions, because I'm not here trying to debate it; I want to know WHY you believe what you do and I want to know if you have any factual proof for such beliefs.

I have no problem giving you my own factual information on why i believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Heaven, but I want your answers first, as you stated clearly WHAT you believe but not WHY you believe them.

Also, sexual preference is dictated as morally right by who?

Opinion?

Or...

Fact?

Also, it's oddly strange that there is a very low percentage of homosexual activity among non westernized countries.... homosexual lifetyle is openly accepted in North America but it's not as easy to find in non democratic societies.

Can you explain this occurance?

Lastly, if we get to Heaven based on OUR beliefs and not on outside factual foundation, then even a child molester is going....if he believes he is.

See the point?

Regardless of what WE believe, it will never change the truth.

Truth is of a higher standard than one's belief.

One says the earth is round while the other claims it's square....only one belief can be correct, and the one that IS correct is based on study and factual information.

You can believe the earth is square all you want; the TRUTH remains that it's not.

Your beliefs will never change established Truth.

So, again, can you prove your statements?

here is a link to the main reason that homosexuality should not be allowed

 

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0097.html

This topic reminds me of the big deal of having sex before marriage or living common law...That's suppose to be wrong also; who am I/you/us to judge?  That's the real sin.. the judging part and the non "acceptance"..

yes it is a sin but at least they are not same sex

Who's the authority around here anyway? Who decides? Ppeople who go around thumping each person they meet on the head with a bible? I am not convinced that there is a blond, blue eyed man in the sky, but when I do, I will be sure to keep you posted.

Well punk, if a Bible Believer isn't the authority, then who do you say is?

You?

You seem to believe that clear discussion is somehow "Bible Thumping".

It seems to me you'r ethe one trying to be "the authority".

And yeah, keep me posted on that man in the sky with blue eyes.

Oh... keep me posted also when you can raise your intellectual standard of speech to more than that of an elementary student with the attitude that everyone's wrong except for yourself... you obviously believe you're the authority since you turned, in one post, friendly discussion into what you call "Bible Thumping".

I'm not a betting man, yet if I were I'd say your post would fit into the most childish ones I've seen yet and the most confused.

You speak ill of who are/aren't an authority yet at the same time you set yourself up as one with your foolish statements of bogus argument and incidious ridiculousness.

I also hope you can understand my speech and the manner in which I write, as I'm not accustomed to lowering my grammatical style to that of a 12 year old :)

Your post is little more than a joke I'll read to my 8 year old this evening as it has the mentality of one :)

God is about both faith and facts, but everyone has the right to interpret their "God" as they choose.I don't believe there are sections in Heaven for different denominations and I think you'll be surprised at how many different religions make it there. Everybody has a right to their own opinion but noone should be put down for what they believe in.

Spyn, you said: "I"don't believe there are sections....

You see?

YOU believe there no sections in Heaven, etc etc.

Again, another subjective opinion without any factual basis.

If everyone's "I believe's" were real then we'd have more heaven's and gods than you could imagine, which we know isn't reality, so therefore the "I believe's" of the world are self deceived.

Thank God (yes, Jesus) that the "I believe's" of the world are deluding only themselves.

If you can't prove your statements and beliefs APART from your 5 senses...if you cannot show me you're correct with OUTSIDE (objective) information, then what makes you think I'm going (or anyone, for that matter) take you seriously?

WOW... Are you for real?....Are you honestly saying that your religion is the only way to get to heaven?...You must be the most conceited person who calls themself a christian that I have ever come across, How is it exactly that you know this? You keep saying you can prove it and I'm really interested in seeing your "proof". So I'm calling your bluff, all cards on table please so we can all make our own assumptions as to how good your "proof" really is.

Ok.... all cards out.

I will say, however, that it's not conceit which brought me to the conclusion that on Born Again Christians go to Heaven.

Jesus is the One who said it in John 14:6, the Book Christians claim to believe in.

He said of Himself "I AM the Way and the Truth and the Life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father but by ME (Jesus Christ)"

So, it is not MY assumption or conclusion; I am simply parotting what Jesus Himself said, so, in effect, you're actually stating that He, Jesus, is the most conceited Person you ever heard of :)

Before we begin, how would you like to proceed?

Rather than you or I hate one another and get all rude etc etc... let's have some ground rules :)

Lemme know

After having read through other discussions I am now leaning more toward atheism thanks to the powerful words of "sweetmelody". What she has to say on the subject of God makes alot of sense. If you'd like to read what she wrote it's in "evolution vs creation" on page 3. If your proof is just in the bible then we're already off to a bad start because I have already read that and still have not reached a conclusion on whether there really is a God. As for hating each other, I don't know you and therefore do not even dislike you. I just don't like people who try to cram their religion down others throats. If a person is unsatisfied in their current religion, or lack thereof, they will seek out a new one.   As for being rude, if I was then I apologize, and I will try not to be in the future. Now that the rules are set, are you ready to provide your "proof"? 

Absolutely.

One q however...

If you were to learn about the President of the US, where would the best place be to actually learn?

The whitehouse, of course.

However, to show evidence on God I will refrain (for now) on using Scripture alone :)

I will provide evidence from science :)

1- You start by showing WHY there may not be a God :)

Hey THUMPER,

I notice that your recent posts are off-topic. You do this a lot when you're losing. But I'll amuse you.

First of all, the way to "witness" to others about Christianity isn't by using a name like "Bible Thumper." And from the intellectually challenged level of your posts, I'm guessing you do a lot of "thumping" in another sense, so I'll just shorten your name to "Thumper."

Secondly, I'd like to know:

If there really IS a God, why are there so many horrible things happening in this world? I am surrounded by war, diseases, and idiots. Why has your God let the world go to pot? Why not wipe it out with another flood or other catastrophe and start over again?

I'M HOOOME!

Haha, hey guys. I actually found this forum through a link posted on another forum, by Biblethumper. Guess what? He was calling for backup because apparently you guys are "sharks." LOL.

Isn't this just kind of sad?

Anyways, this discussion board looks awesome, lots of topics!

PS: I love all people no matter what orientation they might be, and I think God does too. ^_^

Yes, Sharks.

I could delete the forum post but I have nothing to hide.

Isn't that what takes place here?

No, not ALL, but some.

See, Morluna, not everyone here is a "shark".

Don't twist my words.

I'm referring to those who debate to debate, with no point to reach and with a goal only to talk trash and foolishness (take, for example, Celeste)

Also, the forum you linked to is THE forum to be at.

You have no ideas who these guys are.

They've blown ALL arguments outta the water.

How?

By the Message of the Gospel.

Try them...I dare you.

You may just get saved!

If not, you'll have no excuse at Judgment Day; these guys will tell you what you need to know and how to be Born Again.

It;s called "Repent"

Heheh, you never cease to amaze.

I have *** to do. Enjoy.

As long as you're amazed and amused at the most elementary of statements, then by all means continue on your rebellion and sin :)

One thing we will never escape is the fact that deep down, when no one is watching or listening, we know that there IS a God and that one day we WILL be held accuntable for our actions and our reception/rejection of God's Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

I KNOW THAT I KNOW that never would I want to be in your shoes upon facing God.

Ask God to save you and repent (turn around) from your sin.

Morluna Direvrailian wrote:

I'M HOOOME!

Haha, hey guys. I actually found this forum through a link posted on another forum, by Biblethumper. Guess what? He was calling for backup because apparently you guys are "sharks." LOL.

Isn't this just kind of sad?

Anyways, this discussion board looks awesome, lots of topics!

PS: I love all people no matter what orientation they might be, and I think God does too. ^_^

You "think" God loves all people?

What YOU think makes no difference.

The issue of God loving someone is not the train of thought.... the train of thought is this:

Whether God loves all people or not, all people will face Him one day and either be thrown into hell or welcomed into heaven.

You speak of God's love as if it was something that condoned sin..

God's Love condemns sin.

remember that :)

Morluna Direvrailian wrote:

I'M HOOOME!

Haha, hey guys. I actually found this forum through a link posted on another forum, by Biblethumper. Guess what? He was calling for backup because apparently you guys are "sharks." LOL.

Isn't this just kind of sad?

Anyways, this discussion board looks awesome, lots of topics!

PS: I love all people no matter what orientation they might be, and I think God does too. ^_^

I like you already, just don't get on Willies bad side.

SweetMelody wrote:

Morluna Direvrailian wrote:

I'M HOOOME!

Haha, hey guys. I actually found this forum through a link posted on another forum, by Biblethumper. Guess what? He was calling for backup because apparently you guys are "sharks." LOL.

Isn't this just kind of sad?

Anyways, this discussion board looks awesome, lots of topics!

PS: I love all people no matter what orientation they might be, and I think God does too. ^_^

I like you already, just don't get on Willies bad side.

I don't have a bad side unless you count the time I turned into Psycho Kitty and I shot the sherrif (47 times)...but I swear it was in self defence..

LMFO @ Willie!  You realize your going to hell for that don't you?    

I most certainly hope not. After all I shot the sherrif but I did not shoot the deputy.       (Damn gun only had 47 bullets in it)

   

willie c wuddle wrote:

SweetMelody wrote:

Morluna Direvrailian wrote:

I'M HOOOME!

Haha, hey guys. I actually found this forum through a link posted on another forum, by Biblethumper. Guess what? He was calling for backup because apparently you guys are "sharks." LOL.

Isn't this just kind of sad?

Anyways, this discussion board looks awesome, lots of topics!

PS: I love all people no matter what orientation they might be, and I think God does too. ^_^

I like you already, just don't get on Willies bad side.

I don't have a bad side unless you count the time I turned into Psycho Kitty and I shot the sherrif (47 times)...but I swear it was in self defence..

*sings* Iiiii shot the sheriiiiff, but I didn't shoot the deputy...

^_^

I like you guys too! Everyone here seems really cool. Glad to be here. Haha, thanks for the link Thumper! *rolls eyes*

Morluna Direvrailian wrote:

I'M HOOOME!



Haha, hey guys. I actually found this forum through a link posted on
another forum, by Biblethumper. Guess what? He was calling for backup
because apparently you guys are "sharks." LOL.



Isn't this just kind of sad?



Anyways, this discussion board looks awesome, lots of topics!



PS: I love all people no matter what orientation they might be, and I think God does too. ^_^

Morluna...thank you for letting us know what kind of person we are dealing with here.....

Everyone....please click on the link Morluna has posted...see for yourself what Biblethumper is.........I for one am not a "shark" and I know none of my fellow forum members are either........Biblethumper I don't care what your beliefs are....but I do know this...you will never be a friend of mine........you don't even know the meaning of honesty.......you are so two faced........you love God....but call me a shark....for shame..........Everyone....please click the link and see for yourself....

On the contrary I find that he (Bible Thumper) credits US with many things.

He came to a realization that he was not able to convert some if not most of you with his preaching and he needed assistance from his brethrens.

 I am ok with that.

What I do not, however, appreciate is the name calling.

I am a member here for a long time and I do not consider myself a "Shark".

I have my own views and opinions about certain things and would never impose them on anyone.

Expression is something that makes us unique and great as long as we do it in a decent fashion.

Respect is earned. If you give it, you get.

Why can't we just understand that?

Oh just leave the gay people a lone. They seem to be quite happy in their private hell.

ooooo....

Celeste.

ooooo what? I think she's right on. If that's what the Christians think well, I will reiterate it also, leave them alone. If they are happy being that way who are we to say different. Come on would you not agree.

You;re correct, Starry...I should not have done that.

I was too soft!

You are of your father the devil and the deeds of your father, the devil, you will do. (John 8:44)

Jesus Christ is Salvation alone.

Repent and believe the Gospel.

I think it shows he cares enough to get extra help!   The message has always bee repent and be saved. John the Baptist preached it. Christ preached it.  Thats love.  They didnt listen to Noah and they didnt listen in the time of Sodom and Gomorrah and looked what happened there!  Proven to be true!  It says in the Bible .. as in the days of Noah and Sodom...  so it shall be in the end times before Christs return.. he came and died on the cross but he said he will return and that is in our time! There is a warning going forth to return to God to repent and be saved. It would be wise to be one who listens rather than a fool and perish. As then is now.People go about the normal affairs of life.

 Jesus said that in the time period from His death on the cross until His return to the earth, the same circumstances would be seen as were seen during the time of Noah and during the time of Lot in the city of Sodom. People will forget God. People will ignore the warnings of the judgment to come. The vast majority of people will become so involved in the normal activities of life, that they will leave God out. They will enjoy and value the pleasures of life on earth more than the knowledge of God. They will not be prepared for the end when it comes. They will live life foolishly: as if it will last forever. One of the great realities of life is that it is temporary and very short, and for some people life will end suddenly and unexpectedly.

So think about it. BT cares; as Christians we must care enough to tell it straight! You are not okay in your sin; eternally. When we do not listen to God we are saying we know better than Him. The bible is there it has. He gives us so much patience but time is running out. In our time Jesus will return.. Just like the flood happened, just like the Fire fell on Sodom.   Do you know Christians actually cry out to God.. for eyes to be open? to see His truth? 

 

 

Do unto yourself what you would do unto others.

...and when they have done to you what you have done unto them, do not whine. I think many people never think that what they do to others will be done to them.

homosexuality is sin because god says it is, because homosexuals are promiscuous and because it is unnatural

can you explain in detail other than it's unnatural. It's unnatural to be poor, but do you see anyone defending or debating that?

well to start with   if it was natural we would not have 2 sexes in the world which are female and male and we need both   in order to reproduce  ....so far i have not heard of any male nor female having babies without the help of of the opposite sex ...

ruth wrote:

can you explain in detail other than it's unnatural. It's unnatural to be poor, but do you see anyone defending or debating that?

hahahahahahahah nice way of slicing the cake ruth.

you're comparing a SITUATION (poverty) with a LIFESTYLE (homosexuality)??????????i'm not wanting to be rude here or ignorant but you sure gave an uneducated statement here.you cannot compare the moral with the amoral ruth.that's just plain not possible.

WWJD wrote:

ruth wrote:

can you explain in detail other than it's unnatural. It's unnatural to be poor, but do you see anyone defending or debating that?

hahahahahahahah nice way of slicing the cake ruth.

you're comparing a SITUATION (poverty) with a LIFESTYLE (homosexuality)??????????i'm not wanting to be rude here or ignorant but you sure gave an uneducated statement here.you cannot compare the moral with the amoral ruth.that's just plain not possible.

  wwjd,are you gay? if not how can you justify your opinions on that which you cannot understand?

gay as in happy, yes.but homosexual?not on your life.god says no homosexual will enter into the kingdom of god.also i don;t have the unnatural desire for a man.last of all check out our favorite christian site and click on hate mail your name is there and the list is growing lol.smile now. www.icminternational.org  ps hi newsong jules and all our lovely friends

I just have to wonder how christian it is to gloat over something like that?

I dunno.... i wonder too! let's all wonder together!

better yet ,lets all just allow the nice people to live their lives the way they see fit!

actually god said that mariage are for male and female

and also if god would have wanted gays he would not have maybe 2sexes

what's God's attitude towards war? violence? love? sex? marriage? education? money? Bush being re-elected President? rising oil prices?

how do we know?

Ok...my take is that God hates ALL sin, that means my sin and your sin.

I also believe that He forgives all sin, PROVIDED that one repents of that sin and FORSAKES (leaves it once and for all).

But the question really isn't ONLY "What does God think of homosexuality...the question is ALSO "Why or why not"....

And, what do we base out "why or why not" on?

 like i always said if God would have wanted homo's He would have created either Eve only or Adam only .

but God created both sexes   it must mean that we need both sexes and the relationship should be man and woman  since God also promotes family

 unless they come up with something very different  i never saw a pregnant man

or a woamn getting pregnant without a man sperm involvved

The Bible's condemnation of homosexuality is as clear and plain as the Bible's condemnation of murder, adultery, premarital sex, kidnapping, lying and idolatry. Further, for me to openly condemn homosexuality theologically makes me no more a "gay basher" than I am an "adultery basher", "premarital sex basher", "kidnapper basher" or a "murderer basher". If you disagree, your argument is with God's.

The homosexual community has two ways of promoting their personal choices of being homosexual through the religious forum. First, some will claim the Bible actually promotes and condones homosexuality. Second, others try to get the Bible banned from public use by categorizing it as hate literature.

For any to use the Bible to condone rather than condemn homosexual activity in the theological arena just proves such a one has absolutely no idea what the Bible actually teaches. For anyone to suggest the Bible says homosexual activity is acceptable to God, is nothing short of willful blindness.

Now on the other hand do I agree with the condemning of peoples right and freedoms, NO!

I agree completly, Charming :)

Many say homosexuals have "Rights".... and agreed; they DO have rights.

One right a homosexual has is the RIGHT to be free from such a lifestyle.

If you're pro-homosexual or you ARE a homosexual, here's a Freebie I created for our ministry which you may enjoy (or not) .. this short film presents the RIGHT for a homosexual to change...it presents the RIGHT for the homosexual to understand that they CAN change.

Let's not deny them that RIGHT; the right to know the Truth.

Click Here To View

BibleThumper wrote:

Many say homosexuals have "Rights".... and agreed; they DO have rights.

One right a homosexual has is the RIGHT to be free from such a lifestyle.

Holy ***!!

God must really love you.

Did I say something offensive?

Maybe not.

Did I?

all people are the same.why would god love one anymore than the other?

oneandonly wrote:

all people are the same.why would god love omne anymore than the other?

Yes, we are all the same; agreed...we are all made in the image and likeness of God, but because of sin, we're also all separated from God.

But, as you said, why WOULD God love one more than another?

It's odd how we tend to see love as a mushy feeling, as something that is "owed" to us.

W've all lied, thought evil, etc etc.

Do we truly believe God is somehow obligated to love ANY of us?

I personally believe we all deserve hell.

I also believe that it's by the Grace of God that some make Heaven.

I also believe that it's not fair that God would allow any of us into Heaven.

But He does.

Because He's not only full of love; He IS Love (1 John)

On and on the list goes.

Why do we assume that we know whether or not God will let us all into Heaven at death?

Isn't that an arrogant thing to assume?

If a stranger assumed he could walk into my home at random, he'd assume wrong and find himself locked up.

You see, God calls us strangers if we rebel against His Holiness.

Why in the world would a Holy God let us evil people into Heaven?

heaven would then become hell for those who were NOT evil.

You see?

I believe that not only does God FORGIVE sinners but he CHANGES them.

The PROOF of forgivness is in the lifestyle change.

Show me a man who's really fogiven by God and I'll show you a changed man.

Jesus.

That's the One.

He's the One who made it all possible.

You're correct.

God loves.

He proved it by sending His Only Begotten Son to die in my place.

A Sinless Man dies a sinner's death to save me.

God loves.

:)

BibleThumper wrote:

oneandonly wrote:

all people are the same.why would god love omne anymore than the other?

Yes, we are all the same; agreed...we are all made in the image and likeness of God, but because of sin, we're also all separated from God.

But, as you said, why WOULD God love one more than another?

It's odd how we tend to see love as a mushy feeling, as something that is "owed" to us.

W've all lied, thought evil, etc etc.

Do we truly believe God is somehow obligated to love ANY of us?

I personally believe we all deserve hell.

I also believe that it's by the Grace of God that some make Heaven.

I also believe that it's not fair that God would allow any of us into Heaven.

But He does.

Because He's not only full of love; He IS Love (1 John)

On and on the list goes.

Why do we assume that we know whether or not God will let us all into Heaven at death?

Isn't that an arrogant thing to assume?

If a stranger assumed he could walk into my home at random, he'd assume wrong and find himself locked up.

You see, God calls us strangers if we rebel against His Holiness.

Why in the world would a Holy God let us evil people into Heaven?

heaven would then become hell for those who were NOT evil.

You see?

I believe that not only does God FORGIVE sinners but he CHANGES them.

The PROOF of forgivness is in the lifestyle change.

Show me a man who's really fogiven by God and I'll show you a changed man.

Jesus.

That's the One.

He's the One who made it all possible.

You're correct.

God loves.

He proved it by sending His Only Begotten Son to die in my place.

A Sinless Man dies a sinner's death to save me.

God loves.

:)

Are you saying God will turn all gay people straight in order to rid them of their sin and allow them in heaven. You can't just make a gay person un-gay. If this is the case, I guess hell will be a pretty flaming place (pun very much intended)

No Vlad... lol I'm probably just confused (as usual)

There is also 26 different Bibles.. so, which one should we go by?

In my opinion, a deffinition of sin is hurting someone intentionally. Sexual preferences ain't hurting anyone and I refuse to think that God would be offended by it.

 

That's why I also believe in re-incarnation.. anyone who has pure intentions will make it to heaven; analyse his life and decide to come back to better his/her soul.. as either a male or female.

I believe in Evil people; I don't believe in hell. I believe evil go into separate places when they die because their intentions where not pure from the start. The difference is that some people are "iggorant"; they don't know better.. their is a difference.

well for one thing since sexual preference is not hurting anyone  well how come the put rapist and others in jail?????

 

also if God or whatever thing that created earth or it surrounding would have wanted  same sex couple there would not be 2 sexes in the world

 

so please do not try to push homo's on the world  it is not a proper thing and no one should have to hear about what they are doing in private and it should not be taught in schools that it ok to be homo

notme wrote:

well for one thing since sexual preference is not hurting anyone  well how come the put rapist and others in jail?????

How the hell does that make any sense?

If homosexuals aren't hurting anyone, then rapists OBVIOUSLY aren't hurting anyone either....

WTF?

notme wrote:

well for one thing since sexual preference is not hurting anyone  well how come the put rapist and others in jail?????

Rapists and sexual preference? what does that have to do with homo's?

also if God or whatever thing that created earth or it surrounding would have wanted  same sex couple there would not be 2 sexes in the world

Maybe he figured one day we would need to stop/slow down reproduction lol.

 

so please do not try to push homo's on the world  it is not a proper thing and no one should have to hear about what they are doing in private and it should not be taught in schools that it ok to be homo

I'm basicly giving my opinions just like you are.. I'm not pushing anyone; we all have our own minds...and no, I don't care to know what they do in private either believe me lol.

This topic reminds me of the big deal of having sex before marriage or living common law...That's suppose to be wrong also; who am I/you/us to judge?  That's the real sin.. the judging part and the non "acceptance"..

People are so caught up on things they "think" God wants or don't want yet we don't botter to focus on what it is he does want.

Come on, let's be serious. Doesn't anyone on here know anyone who isn't living in sin. I say *** all that Bible BS. I'd rather live in the real world and think about real issues...

In my opinion, a deffinition of sin is hurting someone intentionally. Sexual preferences ain't hurting anyone and I refuse to think that God would be offended by it.

 

 well this makes my opinion that rapist should be allowed to rape  because it is their sexual preference just like the sexual preference of homo"is doingsame sex partners

 

I say *** all that Bible BS. I'd rather live in the real world and think about real issues...

 

these are real issues since they started teaching in schools it alright to be homo

Well, notme, I'm not gonna argue about this too much with you because I know we're not gonna get anything out of it, but that comment about the rapists has to be one of the dumbest things I ever read. Although, I guess you may be right, rapists don't hurt people intentionally, it's all just preference....

 I guess you may be right, rapists don't hurt people intentionally, it's all just preference....

that is my point why are homo's so special all of sudden and get preferred treatment   we might as well give freedom to all sexual preferences while we are at it

 

not that i would approve it do

notme wrote:

 I guess you may be right, rapists don't hurt people intentionally, it's all just preference....

that is my point why are homo's so special all of sudden and get preferred treatment   we might as well give freedom to all sexual preferences while we are at it

 

not that i would approve it do

Holy ***, I guess someone didn't pick up on my sarcasm......

wow